I'm glad you felt so energized watching the eclipse in a crowd. I don't believe these commonly held ideas about needing people apply to everyone, whatever science or Brené Brown says. We all need other people to survive, but we don't necessarily need to be in a crowd to feel we belong. Most autistic people prefer to be alone, for example. Please don't apply neurotypical expectations to everyone. I feel energized and connected by being with one or two people and on sensory overload in a crowd.
Well call it neurodivergent because it's not normal, nor is it particularly healthy. Autism is completely at odds with the human superpower of social systems. What separates us from the primates is that:
We learn socially
We create socially
We engage socially
There's an irony that what you describe isn't what makes humans unique on this planet. Evolution has rewarded humanities neurotypical capabilities far above any other species.
Aanya, I hope I have misunderstood you because that sounds like an insult to neurodivergent people. Connecting socially doesn't necessarily mean being in large crowds. Neurodivergent people socialize especially well with other neurodivergent people. It's not a lack of socializing; it's only a different way of socializing. There have also been hermits since the beginning of time. Clearly, they provide some function to the social structure, whether or not they socialize. There is no one normal. Just because research says one thing now doesn't mean it won't evolve and say something different later.
Lumping introversion with neurodivergence is an insult to those of us who are introverted and perfectly neurotypical because introversion and extroversion are a scale of normal and healthy humans.
The thing is, Dark Triad and Cluster B are all neurodivergent behaviors and also make up the majority of Hermits and Wanderers in history and the current world. There's a reason they've always been excluded, mostly because they were a danger.
Be careful of lumping yourself with the psychopaths, antisocial, and sociopaths who are, by definition, neurodivergent
Very true Aanya. It's a BIG problem to lump challenges like autism with pathologies like sociopathy by calling both neurodivergent because nuerodivergency (literally diverging from healthy human behavior) was once the sole realm of nero pathologies like you mentioned. Adding autism in there and then celebrating it provides an odd cover for really unhealthy behaviors.
I just submit this note as evidence for that behavior when I reposted this essay! Key to note is 'Scott' who says: "Hell is other people." He's certainly neurodivergent...
Yeah, I'm super introverted and I hate when people claim that's neurodivergency. No, Autism might be but that's a mental limitation that doesn't allow a person to read emotion well. (over-simplified) It's considered a disability for a reason since being able to read emotion is INCREDIBLY important.
Oddly, humans are the only animal society that tolerates autism. They've found some evidence that there is autism in apes, but they don't survive long because all they have to go on is reading emotion. There's no language to bail them out. They can't hide by themselves and 'not people' like so many human ASD like to do. An ape that does that, does not survive. It's called Autism Spectrum Disorder for a reason.
It's not healthy for apes, it's not how human society flourished (in fact, that lack of emotional connection is why Twitter is a hellscape of toneless keyboard raging and pedantic argumentation and vitriolic attacks. The emotional blindness of sitting behind a keyboard turns most of Twitter into the equivalent of high-functioning autistics.
But when you step away from Twitter and engage people in the real world you find that emotion again and it's sooooo nice!
This is very true Sandra. I’ve been pondering your comment on the train home.
I wonder if this is more about belonging rather than the crowd and it’s more about how we get the feeling of belonging. And it’s that that differs between people?
Martin, That's an interesting question. People can feel interconnected with people and the universe simply being in nature. Not everyone, perhaps, but some individuals.
Humans are an incredibly social animal... as most animals actually are! A Lone Wolf isn't an rugged individualist in the wild. They are a sick or problematic animal that the pack has rejected. Same for humans. We all need healthy social intereaction.
Something that really bothered me during COVID were the, and I don't say this lightly, pathological introverts who took to social media positively ecstatic that they now had an excuse to 'not people' and hide in the rooms.
That opens another odd things I've seen with some types of introverts who seem to feel that extroverts are 'stealing' their energy like a vampire sucking blood. I can say, that as an extrovert, nothing, literally nothing, is more draining than an introvert who keeps throwing that in my face. I don't need a crowd to get energy but we all do need personal engagement to be healthy.
Not trying to dog on introverts here, but we are social creatures and it feels like there's a trend, specifically online, for introverts to celebrate anti-social behavior.
We need that social intereaction and that engagement from beyond our keyboards to help keep societies together.
Who doesn't need a crowd. I am an introvert as well but there are times I yearned to meet people, to socialize, to laugh together, share jokes etc etc. We're universally connected. There is energy that we transfer and get from the crowd
I guess it’s where we get our energy from. As introverts we get energy from being away from people and then we spend it when we see people face to face. Extroverts being the other way around.
I've recently come out as an introvert. (to which my wife despondently said, "oh!"). I love a crowd but I love my space too. (not MySpace!) It has to be the right people and the right space though. Karaoke is a resounding yes, though! 😂
Hi Bill. I see he introvert extrovert axis more along the lines of whether you get energy from people or lose energy. So you can have introverts that enjoy being with people but they get physically drained by it and need to step away.
I think that’s when it’s important to have space to go to.
Agree 100%! Getting back to my space is where I'm more comfortable. I can do the crowds and enjoy those times but they are draining. I'm the guy who looks at his watch 5 - 10 mins after arriving at a party and working out when is a polite time to leave.
When I was in theatre, everyone saw my characters and assumed I was like that - outgoing, energetic with people. But all I wanted to do was get home to the peace and quiet. A pity my wife regularly invited people back for nibblies.
We have a friend who always leaves a dinner party 3/4 of the way through. We all know this is what he needs to do and we understand. Maybe we should all be so honest. I guess that works when we know they aren’t being rude. It’s when we meet new people that we need to push ourselves beyond where is comfortable.
Omg, I was cryyyyying watching that Peter Kay routine. 🤣 Love the podcast recommendation AND love that you’re a fan of Amy Suto too! She’s awesome. So much good stuff packed into this one. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Good one Martin. For very long I fancied myself a Lone Wolf. I’ve written about it. I still don’t like crowds but I do need community. Can mine be small? 😉
Crowd gatherings are definitely not for me. But I like weekly online meetings with a small group of fellow linguists to write creatively and support one another when it comes to social media content creation.
I think that is part of the point he is trying to make. We enjoy people. It doesn't necessarily matter the size of the crowd. Or the frequency of said gathering. Your "crowd" is a small group. My crowd size would be a small group too and on a rare occasion a large group.
Thank you for the mention for my post Martin, and a great post yourself with some great examples. The Deeney goal is such a memorable moment, I bet it was amazing to be there as a part of that crowd!
It's weird though. The camera on the day was on the other side of the ground to where we were sitting. I've now watched it so many times on YouTube that my memory of it is now from the other side of the ground!
Martin, interesting point of view. I am most definitely an Introvert. I did enjoy elements of crowds in my youth, mainly with Rock and Roll concerts. Attending such both in Portland, Oregon (Led Zepp) and Seattle, Washington ( Jethro Tull, Yes and Bowie) way back in the early to mid-1970's, that was fun.
I lived directly in two big cities (San Francisco and Seattle) in my youth to late-middle age). While I enjoyed elements of that experience, I am different now, much different.
At age 71, crowds are the very last thing I am interested in. Too much overwhelm, too much stress, too much pressure. You could not pay me to attend a Taylor Swift ANYTHING.
To each their own! I do understand the reasoning behind your writing piece and I am not opposed to some of what you say...but for me, crowd days are completely over.
Thanks for writing, Martin, you are a smart guy and I enjoy your work! WEW
I admit I am writing this from my perspective but I can see how people see crowds can differ between people. Maybe as we get older we need to seek belonging from less in your face examples but I expect that need to feel part of something bigger is still there?
Martin, please continue to enjoy all the crowd experiences you are drawn to! That is the power of Substack, that we can share ideas and thoughts in a neutral and congenial forum and not demand that others share the same things. Free speech is so powerful, as it gets things to the surface and stirs up good discussion! Getting older does bring changes, some enjoyable and some not so much. However, we keep putting one foot in front of the other. Momentum is half the battle in aging and not stopping and refusing to move. I sometimes struggle with that myself and my faith in God and His Son helps me immensely in this.
Keep going and I will, too. Blessings on your day, Wendy
We feel a primal need to get out and socialize, but if we just tell people to go out and be social it won't last long if the built environment sucks. Since moving to Barcelona from the U.S. I notice a difference in the amount of social cohesion I see.
The typical suburban lifestyle makes us feel lonely and isolated. There needs to be a heavier focus on building social infrastructure and curating spaces that bring together the local community. This benefits introverts especially because socializing becomes inherent instead of needing to be intentional about it.
I have been an introvert all my life. As a teenager, and even as a young adult, I have preferred staying in rather than going out most days. But I still need to feel a sense of belongingness to the community. No one can survive without that. It can be the people we are surrounded by, and like you said it can even be the people living 1000 miles away from me. Maintaining a healthy balance is key for me.
Great post Martin! Just subscribed to your newsletter, looking forward to more content.✨
Peter Kay and football in one post - well done! Just been rewatching Car Share with my daughter. Also agree with the crowd energy. I too very introverted - but love a footy crowd for 90 minutes, then time to slip away...
I'm glad you felt so energized watching the eclipse in a crowd. I don't believe these commonly held ideas about needing people apply to everyone, whatever science or Brené Brown says. We all need other people to survive, but we don't necessarily need to be in a crowd to feel we belong. Most autistic people prefer to be alone, for example. Please don't apply neurotypical expectations to everyone. I feel energized and connected by being with one or two people and on sensory overload in a crowd.
Well call it neurodivergent because it's not normal, nor is it particularly healthy. Autism is completely at odds with the human superpower of social systems. What separates us from the primates is that:
We learn socially
We create socially
We engage socially
There's an irony that what you describe isn't what makes humans unique on this planet. Evolution has rewarded humanities neurotypical capabilities far above any other species.
Aanya, I hope I have misunderstood you because that sounds like an insult to neurodivergent people. Connecting socially doesn't necessarily mean being in large crowds. Neurodivergent people socialize especially well with other neurodivergent people. It's not a lack of socializing; it's only a different way of socializing. There have also been hermits since the beginning of time. Clearly, they provide some function to the social structure, whether or not they socialize. There is no one normal. Just because research says one thing now doesn't mean it won't evolve and say something different later.
Lumping introversion with neurodivergence is an insult to those of us who are introverted and perfectly neurotypical because introversion and extroversion are a scale of normal and healthy humans.
The thing is, Dark Triad and Cluster B are all neurodivergent behaviors and also make up the majority of Hermits and Wanderers in history and the current world. There's a reason they've always been excluded, mostly because they were a danger.
Be careful of lumping yourself with the psychopaths, antisocial, and sociopaths who are, by definition, neurodivergent
Very true Aanya. It's a BIG problem to lump challenges like autism with pathologies like sociopathy by calling both neurodivergent because nuerodivergency (literally diverging from healthy human behavior) was once the sole realm of nero pathologies like you mentioned. Adding autism in there and then celebrating it provides an odd cover for really unhealthy behaviors.
I just submit this note as evidence for that behavior when I reposted this essay! Key to note is 'Scott' who says: "Hell is other people." He's certainly neurodivergent...
https://substack.com/@polymathicbeing/note/c-56928562
Yeah, I'm super introverted and I hate when people claim that's neurodivergency. No, Autism might be but that's a mental limitation that doesn't allow a person to read emotion well. (over-simplified) It's considered a disability for a reason since being able to read emotion is INCREDIBLY important.
Oddly, humans are the only animal society that tolerates autism. They've found some evidence that there is autism in apes, but they don't survive long because all they have to go on is reading emotion. There's no language to bail them out. They can't hide by themselves and 'not people' like so many human ASD like to do. An ape that does that, does not survive. It's called Autism Spectrum Disorder for a reason.
It's not healthy for apes, it's not how human society flourished (in fact, that lack of emotional connection is why Twitter is a hellscape of toneless keyboard raging and pedantic argumentation and vitriolic attacks. The emotional blindness of sitting behind a keyboard turns most of Twitter into the equivalent of high-functioning autistics.
But when you step away from Twitter and engage people in the real world you find that emotion again and it's sooooo nice!
Agree, Sandra!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Wendy!
This is very true Sandra. I’ve been pondering your comment on the train home.
I wonder if this is more about belonging rather than the crowd and it’s more about how we get the feeling of belonging. And it’s that that differs between people?
Martin, That's an interesting question. People can feel interconnected with people and the universe simply being in nature. Not everyone, perhaps, but some individuals.
Humans are an incredibly social animal... as most animals actually are! A Lone Wolf isn't an rugged individualist in the wild. They are a sick or problematic animal that the pack has rejected. Same for humans. We all need healthy social intereaction.
Something that really bothered me during COVID were the, and I don't say this lightly, pathological introverts who took to social media positively ecstatic that they now had an excuse to 'not people' and hide in the rooms.
That opens another odd things I've seen with some types of introverts who seem to feel that extroverts are 'stealing' their energy like a vampire sucking blood. I can say, that as an extrovert, nothing, literally nothing, is more draining than an introvert who keeps throwing that in my face. I don't need a crowd to get energy but we all do need personal engagement to be healthy.
Not trying to dog on introverts here, but we are social creatures and it feels like there's a trend, specifically online, for introverts to celebrate anti-social behavior.
We need that social intereaction and that engagement from beyond our keyboards to help keep societies together.
Who doesn't need a crowd. I am an introvert as well but there are times I yearned to meet people, to socialize, to laugh together, share jokes etc etc. We're universally connected. There is energy that we transfer and get from the crowd
I guess it’s where we get our energy from. As introverts we get energy from being away from people and then we spend it when we see people face to face. Extroverts being the other way around.
We still need that connection though.
I've recently come out as an introvert. (to which my wife despondently said, "oh!"). I love a crowd but I love my space too. (not MySpace!) It has to be the right people and the right space though. Karaoke is a resounding yes, though! 😂
Hi Bill. I see he introvert extrovert axis more along the lines of whether you get energy from people or lose energy. So you can have introverts that enjoy being with people but they get physically drained by it and need to step away.
I think that’s when it’s important to have space to go to.
Agree 100%! Getting back to my space is where I'm more comfortable. I can do the crowds and enjoy those times but they are draining. I'm the guy who looks at his watch 5 - 10 mins after arriving at a party and working out when is a polite time to leave.
When I was in theatre, everyone saw my characters and assumed I was like that - outgoing, energetic with people. But all I wanted to do was get home to the peace and quiet. A pity my wife regularly invited people back for nibblies.
We have a friend who always leaves a dinner party 3/4 of the way through. We all know this is what he needs to do and we understand. Maybe we should all be so honest. I guess that works when we know they aren’t being rude. It’s when we meet new people that we need to push ourselves beyond where is comfortable.
Omg, I was cryyyyying watching that Peter Kay routine. 🤣 Love the podcast recommendation AND love that you’re a fan of Amy Suto too! She’s awesome. So much good stuff packed into this one. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Good one Martin. For very long I fancied myself a Lone Wolf. I’ve written about it. I still don’t like crowds but I do need community. Can mine be small? 😉
Totally. We all need community. Even wolves! 😅
Crowd gatherings are definitely not for me. But I like weekly online meetings with a small group of fellow linguists to write creatively and support one another when it comes to social media content creation.
I think that is part of the point he is trying to make. We enjoy people. It doesn't necessarily matter the size of the crowd. Or the frequency of said gathering. Your "crowd" is a small group. My crowd size would be a small group too and on a rare occasion a large group.
I think that’s right. There’s something about belonging and allowing yourself to feed off a crowd. Big or small.
Thank you for the mention for my post Martin, and a great post yourself with some great examples. The Deeney goal is such a memorable moment, I bet it was amazing to be there as a part of that crowd!
No worries. Yeah, it was amazing.
It's weird though. The camera on the day was on the other side of the ground to where we were sitting. I've now watched it so many times on YouTube that my memory of it is now from the other side of the ground!
Couldn't agree more. It's what I try to get across in my stack. WFH is great but you still need people time.
There’s definitely balance to be had from spending some time in the office and some time at home.
Rather than see each as equal chances to get work done I tailor each type of day to what works best in those environments.
So for office it’s about seeing people and meetings. In fact, I make a concerted effort to hunt people down to talk to face to face.
Then, the home working time is about focus and getting my head down to plan and do.
I’m not sure how I used to go into London 5 days a week! Maybe I’ve got soft!
Martin, interesting point of view. I am most definitely an Introvert. I did enjoy elements of crowds in my youth, mainly with Rock and Roll concerts. Attending such both in Portland, Oregon (Led Zepp) and Seattle, Washington ( Jethro Tull, Yes and Bowie) way back in the early to mid-1970's, that was fun.
I lived directly in two big cities (San Francisco and Seattle) in my youth to late-middle age). While I enjoyed elements of that experience, I am different now, much different.
At age 71, crowds are the very last thing I am interested in. Too much overwhelm, too much stress, too much pressure. You could not pay me to attend a Taylor Swift ANYTHING.
To each their own! I do understand the reasoning behind your writing piece and I am not opposed to some of what you say...but for me, crowd days are completely over.
Thanks for writing, Martin, you are a smart guy and I enjoy your work! WEW
Thanks Wendy.
I admit I am writing this from my perspective but I can see how people see crowds can differ between people. Maybe as we get older we need to seek belonging from less in your face examples but I expect that need to feel part of something bigger is still there?
Martin, please continue to enjoy all the crowd experiences you are drawn to! That is the power of Substack, that we can share ideas and thoughts in a neutral and congenial forum and not demand that others share the same things. Free speech is so powerful, as it gets things to the surface and stirs up good discussion! Getting older does bring changes, some enjoyable and some not so much. However, we keep putting one foot in front of the other. Momentum is half the battle in aging and not stopping and refusing to move. I sometimes struggle with that myself and my faith in God and His Son helps me immensely in this.
Keep going and I will, too. Blessings on your day, Wendy
so glad you liked it!
No worries Neal.
We feel a primal need to get out and socialize, but if we just tell people to go out and be social it won't last long if the built environment sucks. Since moving to Barcelona from the U.S. I notice a difference in the amount of social cohesion I see.
The typical suburban lifestyle makes us feel lonely and isolated. There needs to be a heavier focus on building social infrastructure and curating spaces that bring together the local community. This benefits introverts especially because socializing becomes inherent instead of needing to be intentional about it.
I have been an introvert all my life. As a teenager, and even as a young adult, I have preferred staying in rather than going out most days. But I still need to feel a sense of belongingness to the community. No one can survive without that. It can be the people we are surrounded by, and like you said it can even be the people living 1000 miles away from me. Maintaining a healthy balance is key for me.
Great post Martin! Just subscribed to your newsletter, looking forward to more content.✨
Peter Kay and football in one post - well done! Just been rewatching Car Share with my daughter. Also agree with the crowd energy. I too very introverted - but love a footy crowd for 90 minutes, then time to slip away...